Id Brunswick-Balke-Collender Warwick or Saratoga
5/15/2019 2:13:14 PM
Id Brunswick-Balke-Collender Warwick or Saratoga
Help ID this antique pool table by Brunswick Balke Collender.
I've included pics of what I've been told is the original rack as well as the score slide. The chalk writing is what's on the back of the slate. I'm not sure what it says and could be of some significance to those in the know, could be nothing more than a sign off, your guess is as good as mine. "2333" is the number stamped on the rails and the slate beds, in the underside of the rails is marked with the 2333 as well as the number 130, again I have no idea if they have any significance. I've read many of the other id requests and feel the 2333 is serial number and not likely helpful but the 130 although likely the same situation, I figured it couldn't hurt to add them.
Best I can find is possibly a Brunswick Balke Collender Warwick or even Saratoga but the side rails aren't held on in the same manner. The bolts do not go through the outer pieces which would then use and show the brass snap covers or rosettes seen on most.
The only piece of info I've been able to gain is, I feel, nothing but a guess, and that's the mention of the table being from 1903 or perhaps 1905. Unfortunately using that info I've not been very successful with id otherwise I wouldn't be bothering you all on here.
Id Brunswick-Balke-Collender Warwick or Saratoga
Replies & Comments
billiardsforum on 5/15/2019 3:56:58 PMMost certainly either a Warwick or Saratoga model.
It really looks like a Brunswick Warwick pool table all the way - as long as it is at least a 9-foot pool table. If it's smaller, it's probably a Saratoga.
Also looks to be missing the trim under the rail blinds which also makes it harder to be sure.
Those numbers e.g. "2333" would have been to keep track of matching parts from the same table. They're not really serial numbers as far as I understand (though we'll never know as Brunswick had long-ago suffered a near-complete loss of customer records not once, but twice, due to fires). The "130" would not be a number relevant to identification or a model number (but never hurts to post all of the details as you did).
They were made from 1904 To 1911 so it could be from any time within that 8-year period
A lot of people mistake the Brunswick Saratoga (and lower-priced Brunswick Newport) pool tables for the Warwick. They are nearly identical, but the Warwick is considered superior and was a bit more pricey. The Warwick model had that thicker decorative trim at the bottom of the apron whereas the Saratoga's is thinner.
Check this out - comparing the Saratoga and Newport pool tables:
Here's the technical bulletin from Brunswick's 1908 catalog for the Warwick pool table:
Technical Information: From the 1908-1909 Brunswick Balke Collender Co., catalog, page 28:
9 Pro options (50" x 100" Playfield)
- Slate: 1" 3 piece unframed, optional 1 1/2"
- Weight (lbs):1500
10 Foot options (56" x 112" Playfield)
- Slate: 1: 3 piece unframed; optional 1 1/2"
- Weight (lbs):1800
Color Options: Golden Oak, Mahogany
Produced under 18 construction patents awarded from 1892 to 1905; A design patent was awarded on December 1, 1903.
Handsomely figured golden oak or mahogany; Monarch Perfect Angle cushions.
The 5x10 size is also available in 6 legs.
The nonpareil of high grade billiard and pool tables, equaled by few and surpassed by none in quality.
Of all the many elegant designs of high grade billiard and pool tables produced by us during the past 40 years, we consider the Warwick without a rival. It has a simplicity of design, gracefulness or outline and with all an appearance of massive solidity which embodies features of attractiveness that are absolutely unsurpassed. In point of construction and finish the Warwick ranks with the very best that can be produced in billiard and pool tables.
The slate bed is best quality Vermont one inch thick, the sections being joined with brass dowels and sockets. No screw holes on the playing surface. Can be furnished with slate 1 1/2" in thickness where desired, at a small advance in cost.
The cushions are the celebrated quick acting Monarch, guaranteed the most perfect angle cushion in the world. Used by all professional players in America and Europe.
The cushion rails are of extra heavy construction and firmly bolted to the slate bed. In all of our high grade tables, what is termed a "blind cushion rail" is made use of, that is the bolts holding the cushion rails to the slate bed are concealed by woodwork. This eliminates the cheap appearing ornamental bolt caps and gives greater weight to the cushion rail, which means better results from the cushions. The cushion rail tops are veneered with rosewood, which does not change color, cannot be easily disfigured with lighted cigars and does not have the objectionable features of a varnish finish.
By the way, that scorekeeper is from a company called:
E.J. Riley Limited Accrington, England
That company became the "Riley" name that is still popular in cue sports today (though the company in it's original incarnation went belly-up in 2002, the rights to the name was purchased and is still used.
Great history available online if you search for it.
mezman on 5/15/2019 5:45:49 PMThat apron mentioned is not missing but according to the stamped numbers original and one of the things that throws me for identity.
Also the fact that on the Saratoga and Warwick, those same pieces have the side bolts going through them and then covered with a decorative brass bezel or rosette whereas this table conceals them and does not have the bezel or the decorative apron.
The playing field (bumper to bumper) is 50 1/2" x 100 1/4"
- billiardsforum on 5/15/2019 6:27:45 PM
Yes agreed. I still lean toward the Warwick model for yours. Those old Brunswick catalog photos were not photographs, but rather, artist's renderings, and actual production units could differ somewhat. Especially over the 8-year span the Warwick was produced. Not to mention the tendency for pool room owners to repair pool tables in a Frankenstein fashion, using spare parts from any other tables that would fit.
This is what I mean by the piece I don't see on yours:
I am not sure how you could know for sure that a trim strip isn't missing... It really looks like something belongs there on yours, but is missing. I agree that what is there, IS original, but might be missing a piece of trim.
Reminds me to point you to this post with more photos from this table above:
See the first response to the main post. I think that table is nearly identical to yours.
- mezman on 5/16/2019 12:19:09 PM
After looking at my post it appears I failed to add a picture of the tag on the end rail.
Also, I'm not opposed to removing the felt from the rails if there's a good chance I'll find some type of markings to help identify it.
As for the decorative skirt, as far as I can tell there is no evidence of something being removed (nail holes, wood fillers, stain discoloration,etc) and the numbers suggest they are the original pieces. After looking at the photos you've provided as well as many others. It appears to me that the decorative skirt is all I've piece and not an added trim. In my opinion it wouldn't make much sense for it to be a separate piece considering how easily it would have been damaged and knocked off from basic game play. I'm not sure I can recall a single game where I've had to get right against the table while stretching for a shot. Then again I'm not the tallest in the world at 5' 9" (short people problems 🤷‍♂️).
I guess what I'm looking to find out more than anything is the potential value for this antique pool table. If the link you've last provided suggests that this table is worth upwards of $10k, does anyone wanna come grab this bad boy for $5k LOL (not a joke btw)?
No matter what the outcome ends up being and whether or not I'm able to nail down anything definitive it's important to mention that I do recognize your time is valuable so any spent on this is truly appreciated.
- billiardsforum on 5/21/2019 4:34:40 PM
Nameplate is fairly common on many models, so it's doesn't help much as far as my own knowledge is concerned, but every bit helps.
I get what you are saying about the trim. It's one detail I can't reconcile with my old catalogs and images etc.
$10K would be the value for one that is meticulously restored and whose model and perhaps it's provenance is well known.
A full restoration will run into the multiple thousands of dollars.
I recommend reaching out to some recognized experts in the field to finalize an identification and start looking at a value.
Three places for you to reach out to for assistance in the appraisal of your antique Brunswick pool table:
- Ken Hash at Classic Billiards - One of the guys to contact about this type of thing. Always happy to help where he can.
- Donald Bartholomay or Dave Grunenwald of Bankshot Antique Pool Tables Albany NY
- Anyone at Blatt Billiards.
There are a few others, but this list should be good to get your started.
What I'd do is shoot some emails out to these guys with a link to the thread here. Ken is especially helpful from what I hear. Always willing to help out and answer questions, even if you aren't buying parts etc.
Same with the guys at Bankshot.
Blatt are a higher-end antique and custom pool table shop, caters to movie stars, professional athletes, and super wealthy clients, etc., and sometimes don't really get back to you, but can be helpful at times.
It's been great to see the photos of your antique pool table. Hopefully if you discover any more, you'll share the info here.
- mezman on 10/30/2020 1:04:32 PM
I've since found out that this is in fact a pool table manufactured by Kansas City Billiards, a small and short lived company.
It was built sometime around 1903.
The company was ultimately bought out by the Brunswick-Balke-Collender Co. around 1913.
Can anyone offer any more information about the company? I would also like to know if anyone can venture an estimated value.
Thanks all in advance for any and all information.
- billiardsforum on 11/2/2020 12:55:01 PM
Thanks so much for the update. How did you end up figuring that out?
Check this out. It's a pool table image from the Kansas City Billiard Table Mfg. Co. brochure/catalog. It looks to be identical to the model you have. I don't have any further info, or even a model name, unfortunately.
user1635201587 on 7/13/2023 4:44:29 PM
This is awesome info!
I Just brought home an old Brunswick Balke-Collender pool table and I'd like to figure out how old it is. Right now I'm trying to sign in so I can post some pictures.
I have asked 4 friends to help transport the pool table and two didn't show up. Loading the slate was the easy part. The frame would not come apart and they got frustrated and started getting a bit destructive. Someone had used some carpentry spike nails rather than screws in it's last assembly. In the end we carried the whole frame out to the van and it barely fit. It is 63 inches wide on the outside. I think it has a 5 1/2' X 9 1/2' playing surface (or near that).
I was lucky to find one here in Vancouver, BC and it's very similar. It has 6 pockets, the sides have some really heavy application of what seems like a toned shellac. It appeared someone was covering up problems with the finish and maybe brushed it on or something, as it is very bumpy and not just the normal pebbling.
I did not find the bolts mentioned, so I am still unsure, but it is one of the three models mentioned I think. Maybe it was from the same factory. The sides look the same. It is missing some of the ornamentation. I think it was likely repwood. Perhaps they could be replicated from epoxy and wood dust If I can ever find someone to take a plasticized mold off of theirs.
I did find a serial number that is stamped into the wood which supports the slate. It makes sense that it could be ordered with thicker slate if that was eliminated.
I've been learning to play on a beautiful 12-foot pool table from around 1924, so this will be a great practice table. Maybe it predates snooker. It is going in my living room and barely will provide the 5' clearance I would like, but It'll be possible.
I wish I knew the history of the pool table, but the most I got was that it came from some pool bar.
I wonder if it would have been designed for 2" balls? I did not get any of the accessories.
I can't wait to play on it and I can see the wood restoration is probably pretty intensive so I'm pondering what to change or if I should just use it as-is. I can do wood finishing because I do some antique radios. I know I can use a heat gun to remove the shellac or melt it off with lacquer thinners or alcohol. I'm thankful polyurethane wasn't used. I don't know if it has a veneer, or if it is made from solid wood (and thus, no veneer)? I think its Oak but it was too dark to really see the grain when we were trying to load it. I'll get a chance for a closer look and try to add pics to the thread.
Near the pockets it seems to have a wood edge and there is a taper to guide balls into the pockets. Maybe that is to protect the slate from ball contact on the edges.
I at first wondered if someone had broken the slate because it's 1 " and backed by wood. But it seems to be original. There is a marking on the wood pieces that says "head" and serial numbers on the wood. If others have similar tables, look at the 1x4s that are under the slate. It can probably be read from under the table looking up. The numbers are stamped in, not ink.
I was lucky the cushions were done and seem fine. I was able to get the cloth off in one piece, so I think I can re-use it.
I'd guess that base weighs 400 lbs—4 of us could barely handle it and it had to go up some stairs. Some of the factory documentation that I found online seems to suggest that it could have been sent out as either a breakdown or as a complete assembly. Maybe that's one reason for the optional bolts between versions. I think there are some dowels in there. Mine does have caps that cover all the bolt heads that hold the rails in place. Each head has pin holes so it needs a special wrench, but I managed to undo them anyway. They do not have any repwood ornamentation and are quite roughly finished. It also does not have repwood near the bottom of the frame but there is the same molding profile cut in there.
- billiardsforum on 9/27/2023 9:16:33 AM
Phil—yes, indeed please do upload some photos of your pool table once you get it back together!
One other note of interest based on your comments about the pockets, slate, and rails...
Pool tables from that era were commonly available in carom and pocket billiards versions. After carom games were no longer in favor, many conversions were done to those tables to convert them to pocket billiard tables. So what you see on yours may or may not be original, it may or may not be OEM conversion kits, and may or may not be a DIY conversion.
But yes, looking forward to seeing the photos.
Id Brunswick-Balke-Collender Warwick or Saratoga
- Title: Id Brunswick-Balke-Collender Warwick or Saratoga
- Author: mezman (J. Zielenski)
- Published: 5/15/2019 2:13:14 PM
- Last Updated: 5/15/2019 4:10:19 PM
- Last Updated By: billiardsforum (Billiards Forum)
