Value a 1970 Brunswick Willie Hoppe Cue Made by Adam?
10/18/2018 4:20:34 AM
Value a 1970 Brunswick Willie Hoppe Cue Made by Adam?
How do you value a brand new in sealed package 1970 Brunswick Willie Hoppe pool cue made by Adam Cues?
I have this new in box sealed package Brunswick Willie Hoppe 2-piece cue made by Adam cues. It's my understanding since it's a numbered cue, they were original Brunswick blanks and shafts that were sent to Adam Japan for finishing/processing. They have the gold Brunswick label, a leather wrap, and are made with Titlist blanks. It is new-old-stock, in the box, and sealed in the factory packaging.
It says "processed in Japan" as Adam made cues for Brunswick in 1970.
I cannot find a Brunswick Cues flyer, catalog, or Pamplet for that era.
Value a 1970 Brunswick Willie Hoppe Cue Made by Adam?
Replies & Comments
Chopdoc on 10/18/2018 2:47:13 PMYou say it is numbered? I don't see the number. The number stamp near the joint was just to keep the correct butt with the correct shaft. Nothing more. And yes, it was done to the cues that were finished by Adam.
At that time Brunswick had already ceased production of the blanks. They were made by Schmelke.
I would say a couple hundred bucks in general.
New in box? Maybe pushing $300 for someone that wants it.
.
RUSTY on 10/18/2018 3:29:44 PMYes the cue is new and is sealed package. It has never been opened. Only the sealed sleeve taken out of the box (which is intact as well).
It's been in controlled storage since it was new. I meant "numbered" as in as you had stated control number below the joint to match the shaft, telling us it is an Adam cue made for Brunswick. I cannot find a catalog or stock photo of these cues as Adam cues doesn't have them on their website and Brunswick doesn't either. Brunswick has 1969 then their collection stops until about 1974 when they again switched makers and logos.
- Chopdoc on 10/18/2018 9:35:42 PM
I don't believe these were in any Adam catalog.
They were likely in a Brunswick catalog, but I don't have that.
There were cues like this made without the Adam number stamp. Those were made and finished in the US by Schmelke, and I have one.
The fact that this one is still sealed is amazing.
I have research around here somewhere but it's something like this off the top of my head. Some time after 1965 Brunswick stopped making Titlist/Hoppe blanks and contracted it out to Schmelke. Schmelke made the whole cue. At some point, about 1970 they shipped the blanks to Adam for finishing, that's when we see the number stamp. Then after that Adam took over the whole operation and the cues were made from imported wood.
This cue looks like a Schmelke blank finished by Adam.
For many, these later cues don't have much value compared to the older ones. The stamp, though interesting, detracts from the value.
There were several versions with progressively decreasing quality.
You can see the low quality shft wood used in this one.
You will also notice it does not carry the Titlist or Hoppe label.
That this cue is still sealed makes it an enigma.
Do you have it?
Is it for sale?
I have avoided these stamped cues myself but the new in box condition draws my interest.
.
- RUSTY on 10/19/2018 12:04:01 AM
Yes I own this cue.
From what I've read as well in 1970 Brunswick kept possession of the rights to the above cue design took the rough shafts and butts from Schmelke and then send them to Adam/David Foreman for final shaft refinishing, butt completion, ferrule and tip installation. Then Shipped back to the states for sales.
It is numbered 487 sealed package as stated. It is like looking at a 48 year old time piece.
I've got a fellow that used to work for Brunswick for many years that is trying to hunt a catalog or flyer down for me for more information. I am curious just how many like this were made in 1970. I would also have to think the control number would also be a keep safe from counterfeiting number as it could very easily be converted and sold as an original Titlist since the Willie Hoppe signature only changed once and that was in around 1940.
Hopefully I can come up with a stock photo as I love to just know what retail was in 1970 on this cue.
Here are some more photos the veneers are beautiful the finish it incredible you can tell it has seen zero climate change enjoy the photos. Well enjoy the photos. Is it a production cue? Yes. Is it something you see everyday? No.
billiardsforum on 10/19/2018 1:32:39 AMAgreed. It is amazing to have it still sealed in the original packaging and to still have the box in that good a shape.
But you missed the key question - Is it for sale? :)
- Chopdoc on 10/19/2018 6:02:13 AM
Very cool cue.
I highly doubt that there was any thought given to preventing counterfeits though.
You can tell the difference in the veneers between these and the older Titlists and Hoppe cues. They can't be confused.
In addition, they were not collectible or valuable at that time.
I think it's an amazing example. The more I look at it the more I envy you. Really a great cue to land.
- RUSTY on 10/19/2018 2:56:39 PM
Yes agreed. I really gave some more though on the counterfeit theory and at the time there wouldn't have been much worry about that issue.
I did receive a contact today on the above cue from a fellow I know on the west coast who deals usually strictly with Brunswick and Hoppe cues and for a Brief period in the 1960's/1970's he was a salesman For Brunswick. I posted his response below.
At for the magic question 'Is this cue for sale', I will answer: :)
I really still am in sticker shock over this cue right now. I do have a collection of cues but feel this cue does belong to a true Brunswick collector and in their collection as this would definitely be quite the conversation piece for one. So at this time: I'm just enjoying the fact I found such a Incredible new-in-box vintage item. I felt like a kid at Christmas when I got it and opened it as I felt like a 8 year old boy getting his first bike. I have put the cue in my fire safe as I may never handle something like this in my lifetime again. But I'm going to mull it over for a few more days as I'm still stunned by it's pure original beauty.
Here is the response from a former Brunswick employee and collector. It seems to me that Brunswick was very hush about this 3-way deal between Schmelke / Foreman / Helmsetter, as he never saw any documents or paper work regarding the sales of these cues and he owns many.
- Chopdoc on 10/19/2018 5:52:43 PM
Very cool.
Yes, there are many mysteries around the business and cues at that time. It was all internal and not in their advertising or marketing materials. I have never seen any real documentation and have been putting it together for years from various sources.
Yes, of course, Helmstetter/Adam made very good points. But I am pretty certain they were sent Schmelke blanks to finish for a while, before they started making them. Likely just while they made their further business agreements and Adam tooled up for the job. A year? Maybe two? I don't think it had anything to do with Adam not being able to make good points. Certainly they could and did.
Those stamped numbers appeared on some non-Brunswick branded Adam cues as well.
Indeed, Adam made cues for many other makers and many of their own sub-brands.
They made cues for Palmer in the later years as is commonly known.
Did you ever hear of US cuemaker Eckes? They made cues in the US...but later imported Adam cues under the Eckes brand. Hard to find.
Yes, Adam made a lot of cues under a lot of brand names. And they made very good cues.
Some of their brands were made exclusively for the European or Asian markets and are rarely heard of in the US. I have yet to own any of those but am after several.
They also made a lot of bottom end cues out of Ramin wood and/or with decals. Many.
I understand your feelings for the cue. Enjoy it. I am the same with several cues I have.
If and when you are interested in selling, please contact me. Maybe we can agree on something. I am a collector. And I do collect Brunswick. And I rarely sell. I do not flip cues.
I am saving records of this conversation and the pictures of this cue. Thank you for posting it.
- RUSTY on 10/19/2018 8:10:34 PM
What's really interesting is that the gentleman that gave me this information, as I mentioned, was a Brunswick salesman in California where he lives still today. It was funny because he has one in his collection and he didn't even know what the numbers meant or what the difference was. But as he stated he always wondered why the Joint was not like his other Titlist originals.
So that's how little information Brunswick gave to their sales people back then. It was as though it was top secret. This Gentleman had no clue that Schmelke made the last series of blanks for Brunswick in 1969-1970. He literally told me a story of a young David Foreman coming to the billiard supply store in California and selling them 12 cues at a time just before Adam cues was formed out of the trunk of his car.
He told me he also recently sold some Brunswick cues he had no interest in that had 9/16 X 24 joints because Jim Schmelke could make shafts and refinish the cues for them and I solved his joint mystery.
Here is a cool photo from Belltown Vintage of the Titlist veneers from 1920 to the last year, 1970, from bottom to top.
- 1920's 1-piece
- 1930's 2-piece (wrapped)
- 1930's 2-piece (wrap removed)
- 1941-1945 Titlist
- 1950's Hoppe Professional
- A conversion of 1960's Hoppe Professional
- Circa 1970 Signature Series (which is what my cue above is)
They used the same colors in the Veneers all those years. They only got a little larger as years progressed. Maple, brown, green, purple. They state on their website the only model that used different veneers was the 1930 Ralph Greenleaf cue. You my already know this stuff if you are a Brunswick collector.
I no doubt will keep you in mind when I decide what to do with this cue. It does deserve a collectors home that appreciates this for what it is; A basic classic beauty in sealed, new condition. My heart tells me so. Other than other collectors or somewhere in Grandma's attic, I'm sure there is another one unused original box somewhere. It is the "where" that always inspires me to look.
P.S.: I don't own rights to this Photos of over the years.
- billiardsforum on 10/23/2018 3:58:33 AM
Thank you @Chopdoc and @RUSTY both for a great discussion on these old Adam Brunswick cues.
I've learned a great deal from you both on the subject.
- RUSTY on 10/23/2018 10:56:03 AM
It's a well deserved topic as these and early Brunswick-Balke-Collender cues were the player's preference when choosing a cue.
Some of the earliest Brunswick-Balke-collender one-piece cues were even imported.
I still have yet to find any documentation on my cue as the cut-off of the brochures seems to be at 1964-1965 for true titlist label cues and there isn't really anyone living with information on these mystery cues. There is also a lot of speculation in the billiard cue collector world. It is like a puzzle with missing pieces.
Here are the 1964-1969 Brunswick cue brochures available on Brunswick's website. I do not own these or the rights to these photos. These were listed cues available in that time frame from Brunswick.
- Chopdoc on 10/23/2018 5:14:43 PM
That second to the last page has the cues I was talking about in the other thread. The ones with the flat bumper impressed with Brunswick on it.
One of the things you should understand is that the catalogs are not always accurate pictures. Brunswick recycled pictures, re-used them.
Sometimes the details like logos, decals, bumpers, etc are not exactly correct in the catalog.
- RUSTY on 10/23/2018 5:31:37 PM
I am very aware that just like buying a car. You see a photo then you add your options. The item may not come as exactly as described and what not. Stock image only. See dealer for details. That advertising practice has been going on since the beginning of printed advertising.
I was just posting the Brunswick photos I did track down on their website for future reference for possibly someone else.
There are a couple of the cues you are referring to the ones I missed on eBay right now. One was restored and had Brunswick Black Crown cue case and 2 shafts. It was very nice. It was part of a huge no-reserve collection I've been watching with some very nice vintage cues. Sadly the bidding has got a little out of hand for my blood.
- Chopdoc on 10/23/2018 10:20:02 PM
Yup. Ebay values can get a bit out of hand. I am not a flipper, but I am a bargain hunter.
As for their web site, I am really glad they keep that archive. Very cool of them.
Valley-Dynamo has an archive as well.
- RUSTY on 10/24/2018 4:28:07 AM
They seem to add to their web-site as information comes to them. I use another site to Identify some of the very earliest cue imports. This site has Brunswick France and 100's of other cue makers throughout billiard's history.
He's a really nice guy. I've contacted him via email several times. He is a billiard historian overseas.
Google "Guy Huybrechts". He has an extensive page of history on pool cues and imported cue makers dating as far back as he can find. Very extensive research on his part. I'd say he has a passion as he updates regularly on his information and pages always adding new material.
- Chopdoc on 10/29/2018 7:17:12 PM
I know who he is. Cool stuff.
By the way, here is a cue by Adam with the stamped number on it.
Sourcef: ebay.com/itm/CUE-STICK-HIGH-QUALITY-CONSTRUCTION-WITH-EXQUISITE-CARVED-DETAILS/392162170986
- RUSTY on 12/8/2018 3:36:59 AM
My Brunswick Willie Hoppe cue is for sale.
Comment on the sale thread with contact info if you are interested. I am not looking for any more cues so no trades. Cash is king. Maybe we can strike a deal. Thank you.
Seth on 2/7/2019 5:44:25 AM
@Chopdoc - About this "sealed" 1970 cue:
- It strikes me that the ferrule is a short one
- It also strikes me that the plastic sealing is very much like that used and found on cues of today.
In 1970 would one have seen a ferrule or sealed plastic wrap like this?
- Chopdoc on 2/7/2019 9:22:31 AM
As for the short ferrule, believe it or not, short ferrules are not a modern invention.
Is it possible that cue was resealed? Possible, yes. I have never seen the original packaging on one of these cues beyond the box. The earlier ones were wrapped in brown paper in a cardboard tube with metal ends.
Although the plastic sleeve does look modern, I have no reason to believe they didn't exist at that time.
.
user1556161974 on 4/24/2019 8:12:55 PM
To my knowledge it was made by Palmer at the time.
I have one of these same Willie Hoppe cues but mine has a lower stamp number (#319 on mine). Mine has never been used.
I am willing to sell it if anyone is interested.
- RUSTY on 4/24/2019 11:19:55 PM
@Seth - A lot of theory but having the original box tells the entire story of the plastic sealed wrap. You can't just ship and sell the product with no protection, can you? Sealed wrap and plastic wrap dates back to the 1950s. It's the same concept as trash bags in the 1960's. So - Modern wrap - not really.
Short ferrules were used long before they grew in size. Now everyone is reverting to short ferrules again.
You should do your homework before making claims like those.
You are saying that sealed plastic and short ferrules didn't exist in 1970, but they have been around forever.
Both of these cues are from the same time and place we know this.
- Chopdoc on 4/25/2019 8:20:00 AM
@user1556161974 above said the stamped cues were made by Palmer.
Wow, that's a stretch. I would say no way.
- RUSTY on 4/25/2019 8:25:53 AM
If that was the case it would debunk 20 years of research of other cue experts.
Everything known and researched about these cues has always led back to Adam Cues in Japan.
I do still have the cue. Even as sick as I am, and knowing I cannot use it, I find myself clinging to it. Maybe it is a simple beauty attraction, I don't know.
user1565219518 on 8/7/2019 4:11:59 PM
I’m looking for info on these Brunswick Willie cues too.
What I know about this is that it was purchased by my grandfather, handed down to my father, then handed down to me. My grandfather was born in 1921, and my Dad in 1950. I am not sure where along the way this cue was purchased, though.
This also is numbered (124), and I find it interesting that another poster on this thread is also from Ohio.
And the plot thickens!
user1641589493 on 1/7/2022 1:04:54 PM
This is my Willie Hoppe Brunswick pool cue that’s for sale right now on eBay:
user1670924183 on 12/13/2022 1:36:24 AM
I have a Brunswick Willie Hoppe cue stick that is identical to the one wrapped in the box owned by the user in the original question above.
Mine is numbered 365 and although used, it looks really good.
I found it in a thrift store in a nice heavy duty leather felt lined cue case.
I've been looking for a while to see if it was worth anything.
Value a 1970 Brunswick Willie Hoppe Cue Made by Adam?
- Title: Value a 1970 Brunswick Willie Hoppe Cue Made by Adam?
- Author: RUSTY (Tim Linn)
- Published: 10/18/2018 4:20:34 AM
- Last Updated: 10/23/2018 4:11:01 PM
- Last Updated By: billiardsforum (Billiards Forum)
