Calling Combination Shot Details and Sequence in APA

3/18/2018 9:01:26 PM

Calling Combination Shot Details and Sequence in APA

We play APA rules, call shot. I am calling a combination shot 1 in the side off the 3.

There is a striped ball to the left of the 1-ball. The Cue ball strikes the 3 which goes off to the left side and caroms off the striped ball and the 3 changes direction to the right and then the 3 contacts the 1 ball which falls into the called pocket.

I called the 1 off the 3 and this is what I thought is a legal shot in APA rules, basically:

Called ball, called pocket, nothing else matters.

My friend said that is no longer a combination shot because, he said the combination shot is the 3-ball has to hit the 1 ball without carom off another ball, that the sequence is broken so therefore it is no longer a combination shot and I loose my turn.

He is 100 percent certain that he is correct, and looking up league rules and forums cannot change his mind. Is he correct and I am wrong.

So in a combination shot (APA rules, standard call shot) can I just call the intended ball into the called pocket without calling the sequence of the shot and do I have to indicate which ball I am contacting first?

grethi

This question relates to the following billiard rules:

Calling Combination Shot Details and Sequence in APA

Replies & Comments

billiardsforum on 3/20/2018 6:42:42 AM
You are absolutely correct in your assessment of the scenario you described.

Current 2018 APA 8-Ball Rules state:
1. Combination Shots - Combination shots are legal, but striking the correct ball first is required
The only thing it specifies is that you contact your correct ball first. So you are fine, as long as you do that, AND don't commit any specific fouls:
- Failure to hit a correct ball first. (A player who is shooting stripes must hit a striped ball first.)
- Failure to drive any ball to a rail (Pockets are considered rails)
There are ZERO sections in ANY current APA rules which specify that you must call every ball and sequence and carom in a combination shot.

In addition to that, the overriding rule is that any rules not specifically outlined in the specific game's rules (e.g. 8-ball rules) you typically consult the "General Rules of Pocket Billiards" as detailed by the World Pool-Billiard Association. In those, it DOES specifically outline rules for calling shots. Again, you would prevail since you met all of the requirements.

1.6 Standard Call Shot

In games in which the shooter is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant.

Only one ball may be called on each shot. For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket.

There is ONE statement where your friend could try to say he is correct, and it is the last paragraph below. But if you take the sentence literally (which you should) then you have hit all of the requirements since you said you did call your ball and your pocket. The last paragraph does NOT mean that you must call all balls in the sequence. It just means you must specify ball and pocket if it's not clear.

jfitch on 3/20/2018 8:26:01 PM
APA is not a call shot league, but any league where shots are called (BCA, UPA, etc.) will only require you to call the target ball and pocket. As long as the called ball is pocketed in the called pocket and no foul is committed, the shooter's turn continues. In your case, you called the 1 ball in that pocket and you did not foul because you hit a solid first, so your turn would continue.

user1521840187 on 3/23/2018 5:23:08 PM
Why call a combination shot? The definition of a combination shot is the point. A three ball combination shot using one of your opponents balls would be as such: cue ball striking the 3 ball, the 3 ball striking the say 11 ball, the 11 ball striking the 1 ball then the 1 ball entering the intended pocket. Never has a combination shot "definition" not been a sequence. If you play using a set understood rules. How can you mix rules from other sources to use in your game at the time to get your way?

General Billiard Rules - Calling Shots (Regulation 3.4)

Applying to games of call-shot, under this rule states that a player can shoot any ball they choose, but must "call" both the ball they are shooting at, and the pocket at which it will be shot. The player does not need to indicate details such as legal combinations, kisses, caroms or cushions. Any balls that are pocketed in addition to the called ball are counted in the shooter's favor.
- What is a legal combination shot?
- What if the call is a combination shot?
- What if the shot was not obvious and it was called, and the details given were incorrect? How can the shot still be considered legal?

billiardsforum on 3/23/2018 8:33:17 PM
The point is you don't have to incorporate any of the details of the combination shot into your call.

Simply call the ball and the pocket. That's it. Whatever happens in the middle is incidental. As long as you have those two pieces of information, you are golden.

And to reply to your questions:
- What is a legal combination shot? One in which you didn't foul, and you called the target ball and the target pocket.
- What if the call is a combination shot? Again, call the ball, and the pocket. If you have to use a combination to achieve that end result, it's perfectly fine.
- What if the shot was not obvious and it was called, and the details given were incorrect? How can the shot still be considered legal? The "non-obvious" phrase in the rules applies to when your target ball and target pocket are not obvious, and doesn't apply to all of the other incidental detail.

RayMills on 12/18/2020 11:43:49 AM
As @JFitch mentioned, the APA is famous for its standard that shots don't have to be called ("Slop"). Has something changed in the APA, or was this some higher-division segment of your local league?

All this talk about the sequence of a combination shot would only matter if it were a no-slop league (which are very rare) and there was another way for the combo to produce the intended result (again, very rare).

One example would be trying to predict which ball will go into a pocket if the shooter is making a secondary break shot on the remaining cluster of balls.

Calling Combination Shot Details and Sequence in APA

Title: Calling Combination Shot Details and Sequence in APA
Author: grethi (George Rethi)
Published: 3/18/2018 9:01:26 PM
Last Updated: 3/20/2018 5:02:52 AM
Last Updated By: billiardsforum (Billiards Forum)