Ball in hand foul
1/24/2009 1:53:05 PM
Ball in hand foul
So I was playing in the 8 ball playoffs on APA league. I lost. WAHHHH. Anyways, I had ball in hand and was placing the ball first with my hand, then I lined it up better with my cue stick AND TIP. I had not addressed the ball. When all of the sudden everyone starts yelling foul! Even my team called it a foul. They were polite enough to overlook it and let me continue. When I got home I went and found this ruling:
"Even after having addressed the cue ball, a player MAY, if not satisfied with the placement, make further adjustments with the hand, cue stick or any other reasonable peice of equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls while actually stroking at the cue ball." This is from the 2008/2009 APA handbook.
So my question is...Was I called for a foul because I moved the ball forward with my tip while placing it!?!? The reasonable peice of equipment quote should cover this though, right?!?!? Please help.
This really sucked cuz it was my last ball and I could have had easy position on the 8 ball, But this distracted me and I missed the shot, needless to say I was pretty pissed off.
This question relates to the following billiard rules:
Ball in hand foul
Replies & Comments
quickshot on 1/24/2009 3:31:44 PMThe foul was called because you moved the ball with the tip of your cue. It's very technical in the sense that if you move the ball with the tip of the cue it is considered a stroking motion. For that reason I never use the cue to line up a ball. Accidents can and do happen as you just found out.
Justanotherevolutionary on 1/24/2009 4:47:25 PMIt certainly would be nice if the APA would clarify that. A reasonable peice of equipment suggests you can move it with more than just your hand or the shaft of your cue...So does that mean I can use a peice of chalk to place it? How about my foot? So long as I have 1 foot on the floor? Sorry to sound so silly, but the rules need to state that the tip is the one piece of equipment that may NOT be used to place the ball even if not in an adressed position. I might have missed the shot anyways but this one really gives me some resintment towards the APA and their lack of definition on this ruling.
- Justanotherevolutionary on 1/24/2009 5:13:08 PM
Ok so I went to poolplayers.com and found this in the FAQ's page.
I have ball-in-hand, can I move the cue ball around with the tip of my cue stick? Yes. A foul may be called only if the player fouls the cue ball while actually stroking the cue ball.
As I said I was not addressed nor was I stroking the ball. I moved it back and forth with the tip and ferrule. Therefore. What I did was indeed legal.
- quickshot on 1/24/2009 8:14:45 PM
Well I think the jury is sill out on that. See below: BCA says,
Diagram 5 – Illegal Stroke by Lifting or Brushing with the Cue Tip Any lifting, sideways, or other brushing motion of the cue stick, such that the force that propels the cue ball does not result primarily from a forward motion of the cue stick as defined under “Legal Stroke”, is a foul. Without applying a substantial forward stroke motion, the player lifts the stick vertically or moves it sideways or at an angle, propelling the cue ball with a brushing motion. 18
- quickshot on 1/24/2009 8:38:15 PM
And here is the other side of the coin: APA
Even after having addressed the cue ball a player may, if not satisfied with the placement, make further adjustments with his hand, cue stick or any other reasonable piece of equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls the cue ball while actually stroking at the cue ball, meaning a double hit of the cue ball (sometimes called double clutching).
Having posted the rules of both entities they are clearly defined. However, I do remember reading some place that the tip cannot be used placing a BIH. I do not remember where I read it.
- Justanotherevolutionary on 1/24/2009 9:17:11 PM
I have emailed the APA, hopefully they will actually respond within 1-2 days. I dunno.
- Justanotherevolutionary on 1/27/2009 11:43:16 PM
Okay so after having caused nearly the end of the world, I was indeed right. Which makes me feel better. What does not make me feel better is that it almost seems I was wrong to do what I did in the first place, just because it caused contreversy. That's some BS if you ask me. Why the $#%& even make rules if they are not going to be called right, respected, and known by even the upper eschalons of pool players. It was the opposing team captains that called the foul, I emailed the APA, they talked to my team captain and district rep. He talked to me and now it's just back to the same old $#!^, nothing has been resolved. So I think I will make a point of doing it on every ball in hand I have from here on out. Maybe then somebody besides me will read the #^#^#^%%ing rule book.
TennesseeJed on 2/12/2009 5:43:44 AM"A foul may be called only if the player fouls while actually stroking at the cue ball." This is from the 2008/2009 APA handbook."
while having BIH and placing/moving the ball with the cue is NOT a stroke. see defintion of a stroke. so it would not be a foul. the only way a foul should/would occur in this situation is if player would cause the cueball to touch another ball
user1519087005 on 2/19/2018 7:36:46 PM
A player has the cue-ball-in-hand and somehow moves or touches any other ball.
That is considered a foul in our league but does that mean the cue ball has to be literally in one's hand, or does it also apply to a hand or cue moving any other ball?
For example: Incoming player has ball-in-hand after a foul. Does the cue ball have to literally be in one's hand and then accidentally touch another ball to be a foul? It is this way in our league.
I say it is a foul to touch another ball with your hand or cue when not holding the cue ball but I always get outvoted.
billiardsforum on 2/19/2018 7:53:28 PMI agree 100% with you, and perhaps take an even stricter point of view on the subject.
I see so many folks saying it's not an issue, but this is ridiculous. If you disturb the balls as they lay on the table (whether or not you have the cue ball in your hand), that is a huge issue.
The rule you quoted is correct... It means you can't touch an object ball with the cue ball while you are placing it in the desired spot. This is true and correct, but it isn't the only rule that applies to the situation you described.
If you touch an object ball in any way (with hand, clothing etc.), it is a foul. Period.
Foul By Touching Balls (Regulation 3.21)
It is a foul to strike, touch, or in any way make contact with the cue ball in play or any object balls in play. This includes contact with anything, including the body, clothing, chalk, mechanical bridge, cue shaft, etc, except the cue tip that is attached to the cue shaft. This, and only this may contact the cue ball in the execution of a legal shot.
Whenever a referee is presiding over a billiard match, any object ball moved during a standard foul must be returned as closely as possible to its original position as judged by the referee. The incoming player does not have the option of restoration. For more details on this regulation, you can reference regulation 1.16.1 of the general rules.
Note: some players will argue that this rule only applies while a shot is literally in progress, but this is not the case. In the rule's verbiage, the term "object balls in play" means balls which are not yet pocketed.
When someone tries to argue this with you next time, point them toward this rule quoted above from the BCA General Rules of Pocket Billiards.
If this is not enough to convince them, point them at the World Pool-Billiard Association's 8-Ball Rules:
6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is a foul under rule 6.17 - Unsportsmanlike Conduct.
Ball in hand foul
- Title: Ball in hand foul
- Author: Justanotherevolutionary
- Published: 1/24/2009 1:53:05 PM
