Ambiguous "choice of group" rule
1/13/2009 11:33:08 PM
Ambiguous "choice of group" rule
From the rules: "The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot."
This explains WHEN choice of group is determined, but not how. If I shoot down a stripe legally, does that mean that I am now stripes? Or, after legally pocketing a ball, do I get to choose (for example, make a stripe but then choose solids)?
I recently had this disagreement with someone, and the rules (while usually helpful) didn't clear it up. Thank you for any responses, and if there are any reputable sources that may be cited in relation to this, please speak up!
This question relates to the following billiard rules:
Ambiguous "choice of group" rule
Replies & Comments
quickshot on 1/14/2009 12:49:20 AMWhose rules are you playing by? APA, BCA., WPA .
cspyr0 on 1/14/2009 3:12:20 PM
BCA rules (which is also where the rule quote above comes from). My mistake for not adding that.
Fenwick on 1/14/2009 5:13:58 PM
From the BCA web site. 4.9 OPEN TABLE (Defined) The table is "open" when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice-versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open, it is legal to hit any solid or stripe first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. However, when the table is open and the 8-ball is the first ball contacted, it is a foul and no stripe or solid may be scored in favor of the shooter. The shooter loses his turn; the incoming player is awarded cue ball in hand; any balls pocketed remain pocketed; and the incoming player addresses the balls with the table still open. On an open table, all illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed. **You need to establish what rules you are going to play by before the start of the game. **
- quickshot on 1/14/2009 8:15:45 PM
From the World-Standardized Rules: The short version: 4.10. The choice of group is only determined when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot. Even if an object ball (or one of each) is sunk on the break the table is still open until a legal shot by a player.
Some more indept rules:
http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_gen.shtml
To Fenwick: We both established we were playing by BCA rules - beyond that there shouldn't need to be discussion, since that is the point of having rule sets.
To Quickshot: I looked at the link you posted, but they are general BCA rules, so they don't cover choice of group.
Thank you for the responses, but I'm still confused as to the answer. I will rephrase the question, since the point of my question may not be obvious:
In a professional BCA tournament (such as on tv) at an open table, could a player shoot and legally make a stripe and then choose solids as their group?
- quickshot on 1/15/2009 11:01:45 AM
I believe the answer to the question is no. Once a legal shot establishes a players choice that is the group he has chosen to play and must continue with his choice. Lets put this in perspective: A player breaks and two balls go into the pockets...one is solid and one is stripe. Said player now has an open table before him. After due consideration he opts to sink the 13 ball as a legal shot. He has now committed himself to stripes via the shot, and his opponent gets solids. A player cannot change his mind after a legal shot is made. On the other hand, if the two balls that go in on the break are the same, it is still an open table until a legal shot is made. LEGAL being the key word here.
Having said all that, if you still have doubts go to the following site. It is the official BCA 2008-2009 rules. You will need Acrobat Reader and it is about 100 pages (I think..having not counted them). It has all the rules for different games.
playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
To Fenwick: We both established we were playing by BCA rules - beyond that there shouldn't need to be discussion, since that is the point of having rule sets.
And yet you had a disagreement on the interpretation or understanding of the rules so you did need to discuss the rules before playing.
I play new people almost every day. If I'm playing straight pool the 3 foul rule is discussed. I have a printed version in my case that explains it in length. If I'm playing 8 ball I ask what rules we are playing by. Ball in the kitchen or ball in hand if you scratch on the opening break. I also ask about frozen balls and the nurse safety or the frozen ball rule. That is the reason I said, "You need to establish what rules you are going to play by before the start of the game." I was not being flip!
And from your post I did not understand the real question. My mistake! "In a professional BCA tournament (such as on tv) at an open table, could a player shoot and legally make a stripe and then choose solids as their group?"
No.
Thanks guys, that clears things up. I wish the rules were more clear on HOW the determination is made instead of just stating when it is made. I also wish that saying what rule set you're playing by would immediately clear everything up; but you're correct Fenwick in that things like this have to be discussed beforehand.
I just looked over your link Quickshot, and it is much more clear:
2.6 Establishing Groups 1. Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent is assigned the other group.
Thanks for that link!
Ambiguous "choice of group" rule
- Title: Ambiguous "choice of group" rule
- Author: cspyr0
- Published: 1/13/2009 11:33:08 PM
