8 ball team tournament ruling
4/6/2009 4:37:34 PM
8 ball team tournament ruling
In my 30 years of playing amature 8 ball in BCA, ACS, and VNEA. I have never heard of what went on yesterday. At a VNEA state team championship tournament finals. Two 5 man teams are playing in the losers bracket for 7-8 place. The tournament was handicapped, in a 25 game format.
In the 25th game of the match, player (A) is shooting. Player (A) is down to his last object ball, goes to the score table and asks if he needs to win to win the round. Which his captain replies the 8 ball wins the match. He goes back to the table shoots his last object ball. Makes a beautiful shape shot to get to shoot the 8. One of the spectators in the crowd starts saying that player (A)'s going to the table to find out about the score is a foul. In the mean time Player (B) says nothing. And Player (A) continues to legally pocket the 8 ball. Both teams shake hands and Player (A)'s team hands in the score sheet. The tournament officials call the next match for Player (A)'s team and just as they are about to start. A referee comes to inform them that Team A lost the last match and Team B will be allowed to continue in the tournament and Team A is out.
There seems to be many flaws associated with this scenario.
1. All finals games were shot on three tables at once. Creating confusion as to the score at any given time.
2. Doesn't Player (B) have to call the foul before Player (A) continues.
3. Isn't it a foul against Team (B) for coaching from a spectator.
4. And even if it was a foul, wouldn't it be considered and repositioning of the balls and player (B) begins to shoot.
or a re rack and the 25th game played over. Or Start the whole match over.
My understanding is that since Player (B) didn't call the foul during the match the match is over and won by Team A. It just didn't seem like the Tournament Staff had a very good grasp of the rules. Please reply with your input because I'm afraid of what might happen in the future if these kind of actions are allowed to continue without definition.
This question relates to the following billiard rules:
8 ball team tournament ruling
Replies & Comments
Mitch Alsup on 4/6/2009 6:43:57 PM
BCA 2007-2008 rules
1.9 If you opponent requests that play be stopped in order to call a referee or other official, you must honor that request.
1.23.2 Any foul not called before the next stroke is taken is considered not to have occurred.
1.41.1 While your match is in progress, you must not ask for assistance in planning or executing any shot, if you ask for and receive assistance, it is a foul....
1.41.2 Any person except you opponent who offers any significant assistance to you, verbal or non-verbal, will be removed from the area.
9.2.1 Referee must answer all players' questions regarding BCAPL Rlues withinig the following guidlines:....{objective answers}
9.3 Referees will call fouls as soon as possible after they occur....
9.5.2 If a rulin on a situation or issue which ocurred while a referee was not present, the referee will make their best effort to gather the appropriate information required to render a decisioin,...
1.14 (again) one of the most common controversies.....
a non-playing player of team A violates the coaching rule; a non-playinig member of team B brings this attention to this violatioin, (which is generally a violation in itself) situation degrades rapidly. ..... 2 Situation: Player A1 is at table, Player B1 is in chair. Ream member B2 suggest to B1 that referee be called:
Ruling:: Foul on B2
The rules do not specify if the player remains at table when he goes to score table to ask a question. The rules indicate player at table has rights to ask question. The rules indicate assisting team in chair of a foul is a foul in and of itself -- the only moderation, here, is that a person in the audiance brought forth the attention.
What should have happened by the wise player at table: Call referee before shot on 8-ball due to the assistance from the audience, and have that person removed from the audience.
However, since player in chair did not call foul, then no foul occurred when player at table ask question and then made a shot. End of Story,.
Fenwick on 4/6/2009 7:14:32 PM
What I think does not matter but here it goes anyway. First I don't play in a VENA league. The person in the crowd is a nit. Unless the referee saw the shot what did he base his ruling on; hearsay?
Is asking what the score is or talking to the team captain a foul under VENA rules?
Last, are you going to protest the T.D.'s ruling on this call. I think it chicken sheet.
My complements to Mitch being so well informed and fast on the draw..
guest on 4/6/2009 9:20:23 PM
Thanks for the quick response. I'm in full agreement with Fenwick and Mitch. That's why I wrote the question. I couldn't believe the judges call. I did not mention that Player (A) wasn't even aware that a controversy had began. Because all members of Team B hadn't said anything until the 8 ball was made and score sheet turned in. And then after the spectator had told them he thought it was a foul about asking the score did they start to complain. At that time a Ref came and listened to both teams views and ruled. His ruling was that if Team B thought it was a foul and Team A didn't think so he should have been called to the table before Player (A) shot his last object ball and if not then certainly before he would be able to shoot the 8 ball for the win. But not after the fact, as his view would be no foul committed. To me the match was over and Team A should have continued in the tournament. And then to have Team B go to the judges and continue to plead their case. And then to have the judges overrule the Ref. This is one of the most bizarre outcomes of a dispute I have ever seen. My compliments to Team A as they conducted themselves as gentlemen should. And accepted the ruling and discretely received the pittance 9th place winnings and left. I am not on Team A but know all players and they are nothing but pure class acts and the best Representatives of our sport. My hats off to MY 2009 Champions of this tournament. Only I can't give them the trophy or the cash.
The answer is 'Yes'... You, the shooter, must make your own informed decision on the score at any point when the balls are in play. YOU have to look at the score sheet. You can get the status between games and before your game starts. I am unclear as to whether you can even look at the scoresheet during your game. It is a foul if coached to just make a certain number of balls on the table to win the match, because, in essence it may cause the shooter to play differently.
Scenario... Years back in a tournament, one of our players is in a HUGE safety battle. The game had to have taken 30-60 minutes to finish. In the meantime, two other games have finished, and put our team within a winning advantage. Our shooter has played safe and position leaving one ball in a pocket and playing position with another. Unbeknownst to him, he only needs that single 'duck' ball to win the match for us. However, he plays 5 safeties from the time it is apparent, to the time he finally gets out on the guy.
We nearly ****ped our pants waiting on him to make the one ball knowing we couldn't tell him to drop it and get it over with.
You cannot interfere with a player such that he would change his normal course of action to make ball count.
One thing to keep in mind, even if the shots have been completed and the player committing the foul admits it to the referee at a later time, the referee can STILL make a ruling based on the player's admission of guilt.
Another case in point... Player A is hooked with 2 balls left on the table. He is kicking at ball x (couple a rails, pretty hard shot). He misses ball x completely, travels 3 more rails and makes a good hit on ball y (his other ball). The crowd is into it as are players for both teams. 'Good Hit!' Player A, still does not realize it. Player B, takes BNH. Crowd goes into uproar again (both sides). It degrades from here. Player B calls a referee because Player A's team called the foul. Referee comes to make the ruling, and because Player B 'admitted' he took BNH without reason, and no further shots were taken, Player A takes BNH.
Also remember, that referees do not call FOULS. They only call good hit or bad hit, good stroke or bad stroke. The FOUL call is the responsibility of the opposing player, and in most instances, the call always goes to the shooter.
You should have protested.
BCA 9.3.1:
Referees will call fouls as soon as they occur.
8 ball team tournament ruling
- Title: 8 ball team tournament ruling
- Author: guest
- Published: 4/6/2009 4:37:34 PM
